Just How Limited are "Limited Editions"?
Now, I'm very interested to keep a record of this (before it disappears within my "free" shoutmix post-limit) which started from a query from reader Doc G (gonna be quoting you duder :p) - with regards to the usage of the tag "LIMITED EDITION" - specified by toy-producers (in this case, it stemmed from Enterbay's description of their Fist Of Fury "limited edition" figure at a 5,000-pcs worldwide).Just how limited is "limited"? Just what makes an item (in this case, specifically a "TOY") a "Limited Edition". How many numbers do YOU think it takes, before an item is / and can be labeled "Ltd Edtn"? Can one actually tag a number to that label?
"Limited Editions are B.S.!" ... "People stamp on the Ltd Edtn-tag just to justify wrangling more of my hard-earned money from out of me!" = A lot of times (or actually, most times) we hear/read/spout this thread of argument, it's from the point of view of "consumers" (disgrunted, disfranchised or just plain disappointed a score was missed) ... but ya gotta admit, once ya see the "Limited Edition"-tag, your eyes glaze over, dunnit? does it? Does the tag really affect your purchasing decision/s?
Are we making a mountain out of a molehill that which is basic business tactics and marketing sell-lines? Or are consumers up in arms over being peddled a falsehood disguised as hype?
Do bear in mind though, at the end of the day, it's one person's buying power and purchasing opinions over another's (continued) survival in the chosen business, toys production or otherwise.
Are consumers ignoring the value of effort which leads to the production of toys - from design to display on the toy-shelf and in your homes? (Nobody actually says "Blood & Sweat Edition", innit? :p) Or the effort out in does not necessarily justify the tag? Can any toy producers and / or creators also weigh in on this?
[BTW: the image shown here is a DVD-slipcase cover - heck, anything can be a "limited edition" these days, yeh? heh]
CLICK THRU for a re-posted record of what had transpired over on my shoutmix - with edited unrelated chatter, of coz :p (I will attempt to add on whenever I can). Meanwhile, please do feel free to weigh in with your opinions in the comments section or on my shoutmix. Crunch some numbers. Let loose rants (gentlemenly, if ever possible). Please identify yourself before you start blasting anyone, yeh? Rudeness disguised as Anonymity may not be tolerated, thanks.
DATED SEPT 6 - SINGAPORE TIME:
DOC G /// maybe off topic but can someone explain to me how a run of 5000pc for the fist of fury Bruce Lee is referred to as "Limited".
ANDY TRE /// not off topic, but the only way that can "justify" the "limited" tag, is when there are no intentions of re-producing the figure after the initial planned run ... but then again, i aint enterbay and this is just hyperthetical of me :p
DOC G /// that's understood but the suggestion of the sell is quite different. Think limited run of 50 versus 5000.
ANDY TRE /// anyone else wanna chip in? :p
DOC G /// amazing quality product though.
DOC G /// so in your opinion, based on production number, when does collector's item become run of the mill?
DOC G /// I'm not a collector by the way I'm an aesthete (spl) that likes being surround by art. I just happen to (have) a lot of rare items. That's just coincidence
ANDY TRE /// i reckon anyone could lay claim to "limited edition" "collector's exclusive" etc - and there really isnt a fixed guideline (that i know of) to gauge, except for "personal opinion" or even "tolerance", IMHO.
ANDY TRE /// Some folks gauge a 200-pcs run as "limited" - only becoz there is less going around - as opposed to 50-pcs. As much as a single One-Of-A-Kind artwork is so rare, it becomes extremely "limited".
DOC G /// fair comment. Branding is important though. You're not going to get much kudos playing the "Collector's item" card when you sell 5000pcs pre-order.
DOC G /// it's almost like they're trying to determine if the go the next run up. Should we go a 1000pc run or 5000?
ANDY TRE /// personally, i reckon "branding" has become the world's excuse to trade off quality, moreso for non-toys, where everywhere i see, anything and and everything has a "limited edition"-tag now! hell, i find stuff in 7-11 that's "limited"! LOL
ANDY TRE /// my personal tolerance is 100-pcs or less :p
DOC G /// I agree with the 100pc or less ANDY
DOC G /// In saying all of this though, design is multifactorial. you've got the historical aspects of design, the emotional appeal and the aesthetic
ANDY TRE /// nah dude, totally agree with ya - the confusion comes when us consumers are fed the "limited edition" line - some justified, some "huh"? LOL
ANDY TRE /// but then again, logistics dictate the production costs of toys go lower when quantity is increased to balance out the cost of production ...
DOC G /// re. Branding...I don't give a **** about it as long as it's honest. It really ****es me off when people sell out. not people I mean brands
ANDY TRE /// aaah but for the price of aesthetic gratification us peddlers and purveyors of plastics go thru on a daily basis LOL - honest and sincerity is key, i agree
ANDY TRE /// all brands have to make a living selling their stuff, so "sincerity" is something i take with a pinch of salt... but as long as they be quasi-honest about it, it'll show :p
DOC G /// I can handle quasi-honest
DOC G /// the world should be taking notes and watching ASH WOOD kick arse with his self-directed marketing. That man is a genius with his finger on the pulse ... can he do anything wrong??
ANDY TRE /// ASH is living a creator's dream, IMHO - designing and making your own creations, in a limited quantity, w/ aesthetic appeal & collector's value for $$ ... ASH rawks! ... maaan, if he did have a bambablog, i'll be setting up a tribute-blog! LOL
DOC G /// I sincerly can get enough of his style ... I'm happy to support guys like ASH and we all know that he's an awesome guy as well
ANDY TRE /// and he's only just beginning! URGH! LOL
DOC G /// I guess that means we're only just starting as well then :)
ANDY TRE /// the blackhole of toy-collecting is ever infinite! LOL
DATED SEPT 7 - SINGAPORE TIME:
KENN MUNK /// A bit late into the discussion, but I think an object slides from design towards art as soon as you sell it by the fact that it's ltd. ed. .. well, not nessecarily art, but "collectible"
bobo to kenn munk /// guess it's not just abt being ltd, but it's an appreciation of the concept, thinking behind the piece of work. your way of definition is alittle hmm.
KENN MUNK /// Once you limit peoples access to a design, you add another dimension, making it art ... my point is, ltd. isn't a factor in design, design is giving shape to something to solve a problem.
ANDY TRE /// agree w/ Kenn - design is functional. aesthetics is subjective, IMHO ... The value of "art" vs mass production costs vs each person's purchasing power and tolerance.
ANDY TRE /// we buy it becoz it's pretty, and it's done by an artist we like, within the price range tt we can afford ... but once the price range goes up, and the amount is limited - we score them and we are triumphant ... we miss out and we claim the creator or company does not look out for their loyal customers
ANDY TRE /// "limited" in the end, for me - is how far YOUR own limit goes ... thy desires are limitless, but thy abilities to saite them may well be
Funnily enough I released a papermodel yesterday that kind of refers to the phenomenon of limited editions, collectors items and toys that are kept in their package to maintain value and so on. It's even called 'Limi-Ted (collectors edition)', same as the text on the picture used with this post.
ReplyDelete:)
Marshall
The term "limited edition" is just so nebulous. What is it limited by? Copies produced? Time? Geographical location? It could be anything.
ReplyDeleteIt always makes me laugh when DVDs carry the limited edition tag. Granted they won't keep the product in production, and may only produce one run, but it'll be a run of tens of thousands :) They're not lying, they're just playing on a minor limitation, especially as they might release identical DVDs with a slightly different packaging later on without any mention of "limited" on it :)
At the other end of the scale you get products like ThreeA's Nom/Noir De Plume, or Paul Leung's figures (which rarely crease 20), which are truly limited as the artist ISN'T going to reproduce them in any other form or colour scheme.
Either way it's just a marketing term, but in one case it means that people will miss out :)
@Marshall > LOL (hit me up with details of your papertoy, yo)
ReplyDelete@bighatdino > i like the word "nebulous" - am gonna use it next time if ever i have my own toy - it will have a "Nebulous Edition" ... LOL
I've actually had a "Limited Edition TimTam" a while's back - rasberry flavour (if remembered correctly) - so "claimed" becoz it was supposed to be a "one-time" production of the flavor - fiar enuff a claim, but i reckon the production numbers on that fills plenty of shelves worldwide! LOL
This is a great topic. It's actually the theme of the VERY FIRST 2 of Matt's Hate rants on Toy Break, waaaay back 2 years ago!! (You can see them both on youtube.com/toybreak) Look for Matt's Two Minutes Hate 1 and 2
ReplyDeleteHe even found Limited Edition Fritos! Limited Edition is such a lame term (over)used by every person selling anything. It is completely meaningless and shouldn't be used. The problem is, for some reason, people read that line and it sparks somethignin them. A NEED to have it because they will be somehow more special than someone else who doesn't have it, just due to the words limited.
Everyone - WAKE UP!! Everything in the world is limited. Your life is a Limited Edition. Nothing will be made infinitely!!
@George > wow. 2 years? has it been that long ago?
ReplyDeleteif your products demanded by 5500 people and you only produced 5000.
ReplyDeletebut if you produced 5000 and only demanded 4000 then it called overproduced.
cheers.
Eric
http://thunderpanda.com/lemi
The term "limited edition" is useless no matter how you cut it, yes, is a marketing term, is a catch-word. If you want any meaning to come out of it, you need to state "Limited Edition of (x) units", etc. Because it is true that everything is limited in a way, so, tell us "how" limited this is. 5 pcs, 20 pcs, 500pcs? How many made? The buyer will decide if it is limited enough basing on that number. 5000 pcs for a world of x billion people, ok, is still a small sum in a way... but depending on the context.
ReplyDeleteWelcome to my long-winded post.
ReplyDeleteBy definition "Limited Edition" means exactly what it says, that the edition will someday end and never be reproduced again. Therefore, nearly anything is a limited edition, except maybe garbage bags or wind, but even garbage bags change over time and does the same breeze ever blow twice?
Who cares how many are made or what the implications of the numbers produced are? You shouldn't buy something if you don't appreciate it for what it is. If the qty made affects that perception, you're an idiot or an investor. And if you are a toy investor, you're an idiot. The "collectibles" market is a house of cards and only a fool plays that game.
Frankly, as much as I love Ashley Wood, I'd prefer to have purchased a Noir De Plume directly from him at a price that works for him, instead of having to buy from a scalper (one of the aforementioned Toy Investor Idiots). I don't have that option because Ashley didn't make enough to satisfy his fan base and they sold out in two minutes. What is the attraction there? The hunt? No, because if the hunt was the attraction, I could hunt for something far rarer than a toy made in the last five years. This is, in my opinion, just poor judgement on his part. The demand should set the limit on the edition - what is the attraction in frustrating your fans and feeding the scalpers? If you find attraction there, you are a sadist AND a bad businessman.
I once sent an e-mail to Randy Bowen after he sold out of a San Diego exclusive bust and the price tag rocketed from $60 to $500. He made 500 pcs of the item and it sold out. It was his first SDCC exclusive and he clearly underestimated the demand. What bothered me was that he was posting on his site about how cool it was that the thing was selling for $500 three days after it came out. Maybe the prices validates some artists work in their eyes, but again, if that's the case, that artist is an idiot, not a real artist. As a fan and collector of his work, I was annoyed because I was going to have to pay the scalper price. I wasn't upset with him that it had sold out - he had no idea how well it would sell and admitted that they screwed up. I was annoyed that on top of having to pay a scalper, he was gloating about that fact. Randy got the point and pulled the posts. Good for him. Since then, his edition sizes have been reasonable and his method for obtaining them has been fair. That's how you do it.
My collection encompasses lots of toys. There are ToyBiz figures that I value as much as (or more than) any limited designer figures I've gotten - it has nothing to do with how many are made and what they are sold for. I will never buy a toy that I am not emotionally or aesthetically invested in just because it's inexpensive. Nor will I buy a toy I don't like as an "investment".
Sometimes toy fans think too much about these meaningless issues and forget that it is about the aesthetic of the item and how it touches you. If the cost is an issue, do not buy. At the end of the day the creator sets the price based on a number of variables, including R&D costs, licensing costs, manufacturing costs, required margins and overhead. In this way, Hasbro is no different than Ashley Wood, except that Ash doesn't have Hasbro's manufacturing clout or their overhead. Which means that if they made Bertie, it would be $600.00, because they couldn't sell any more of them than Ash, they might save some $$$ on manufacturing, but they have enormous overhead cost sthat need to be factored into every P&L.
I'm glad that small toy companies can exist and find an audience, but the benefit to us as toy fans is the variety of the toys produced and the wide choices available to us, not the qty made or the aftermarket value.
they can produce 5,000. and each of the 1,000 can be one color. and they tell u it's limited.
ReplyDeleteawesome.
The ultra-limited stuff really annoys me. Case in point: I saw that Audrey Kawasaki had a new print for sale about a week ago. Limited to 150 copies @ $150. It went on sale at 1100hrs Aussie time - I was patiently refreshing before it went on sale.
ReplyDeleteObviously there were people all over the world doing the same - so when 1100 hit, it took ages for the page to refresh. Literally, in the time it took for that page to load, it was sold out.
This same print is now only available on ebay, and a $1500us....
Audrey has a policy of not selling to people who she identifies as 'flippers' - those buying her art to then resell. But it can be hard to police, and a smart flipper can then just use a family member's details for the purchase...
On items like DVDs and games (or even worse, the variant cover comics of the 90s....) I can kinda see the point. Most Ltd/Collectors ed stuff is usually bundled with extra features. Metal Gear Solid 4 had an excellent Solid Snake fig. The highly expensive ltd Halo 3 had the Master Chief helmet. The DVDs will usually have an extra disc or two.
I think in this format, they are marketing it towards the person who will buy it on the day of release. Sure, there might be 10,000 of them world wide, and the studio might make a few extra bucks out of completist, obsessive geeks, but I don't really have a problem with that.
What I really hate is when the studios try to 'double dip' and release the special edition long AFTER the initial release, forcing said completist, obsessive geeks to buy another copy of the same movie for all the extra material and director's commentary that they will never watch :D
Interesting comments and valid points.
ReplyDeleteI must stress that sometimes a limited edition is just the only option. The Ashley Wood toys are partially hand made and after the run they're done. Limited means quality in this case. 75 pieces is super small and yes you will feed flippers but that is the world right now.
So a Limited edition of 5000 mass produced toys is of course nonsense. There is no reason to call that limited.
The first Ledbetter bunny was limited to 400 (and hand numbered). That is a valid limited edition.
The overkil of his latest Smash figure (in what, 5 different limited versions?) is plain silly. Still there are enough folks to buy it.
My advice is to look for more than just he Limited tag. Who is the maker, why should it be limited and what are the production numbers?
And of course buy toys that you like. There's a ton of 90'2 'comic collectors' who will agree on that when they look at their boxes and boxes of limited comics.
"The Ashley Wood toys are partially hand made and after the run they're done. Limited means quality in this case. 75 pieces is super small and yes you will feed flippers but that is the world right now."
ReplyDeleteI take issue with this statement. Most toys include a hand-made component - the vast majority of 1/6 figures do. Why should that limit the production numbers or the quality? There is plenty of good QC and if it is profitable to make 75, it is just as profitable (if not moreso) to make 150. The only ways I can see that rationalize an edition that far underserves demand is if the finished piece utilizes a found object that is in limited supply, or if a licensing agreement limits it. Otherwise, why not take pre-orders and make the number ordered? Outside of this, the only reason to underserve the demand is to create a false sense of collectibility and inflate aftermarket value. I call bullshit on both.